I2a1b2a1 aka I-CTS10228

Since I started DNA research in scope of my genealogical research, I joined Family Tree DNA service [USA], and this post is dedicated to to Y-DNA testing. I do updates of this blog post, as soon as I receive/discover something new and relevant.

First of all I ordered Y-DNA37 only (Jun-2014). It gave me I-P37 as a main predictable haplogroup (but in red color, which was prediction). Later I ordered Y-DNA-67 (Oct-2014) test for more detailed data (more markers – more accurate data, and more accurate matches research). Then I requested a few SNPs, and here are all my results:

I2a-P37/L621+:

  • CTS10228+ (Dec-2014) [Nov-2016: C+, V4023 C+]

    • A2512 C- [Nov-2016]
    • S17250 (Jul-2014) [Nov-2016: YP204 G-, V3022 G-]
    • Z17855 (Apr-2015) [Nov-2016: G-]
    • Y4460+ (Feb-2015) [Nov-2016: A+]
      • SK1241- (Y31845) [May-13-2017: C-, and also SK1242 G-]
      • Y3106 (Nov-2016 appeared on yfull.)

        • Y3118- (Aug-2014) [Nov-20116: T-]
        • S8201- (Dec-2015) [Nov-2016: T-]
        • A6105 C- (Oct-2016),
          • A6106 C- (Nov-2016)
          • I-Y16810 (Feb-2017 moved as sub-branch to A6105. So 99.9% negative.)

Long story short: I’m I2a1b2a1b (based on positive I-Y4460). Neither FTDNA nor YSEQ have new terminal SNP to continue my research (Feb-2017).

ftdna_snp_certificate_dec_07_2015

UPD (May-28-2016) – Now, confirmed haplogroup for me is child entry I-Y4460.

Now, let’s dive into details 🙂

You can find basic understanding DNA research, in my previous post “R1a vs. I2a [Y-DNA]“. In fact it’s about person belonging to  haplogroup, from geographic point of view. But this article si about more detailed Y-DNA research closer to my own haplogroup.

 

I-P37 haplogroup spread (migration).

The key haplogroup is I-P37, and this is main flow chart/diagram by Ken Nordtvedt created in 2013 and shows how I-haplogroup people migrated.

I_haplogroup_Migration_Map_by_Ken_via_ppt

We can see, that there were a few directions in migration process.

Blog [i2aproject] divide haplogroup I2a1 aka I-P37 into smaller sub-groups/subclades based on ethnographic meaning. The relationships of the major branches of I-P37.2 are now known. These branches and their nicknames:

  • M26  (Sardinian)
  • M423 (Dinaric, Disles, Isles)
  • L1286 (Alpine) and
  • L233 (Western)
  • L880 (Northern France)
  • L1294 (France)

Here is 2010 year map, how this all visualized.

 

Haplogroup Aliases clarification

There are many aliases for dozen of SNPs. Despite the fact that these aliases are complicated to remember, and had been changing all the time in past, I really like hierarchy, which classify data in more consistent way. This list is about to understand basic aliasing, with some variations.

  • I2a1b – according Ukrainian DNA group on FTDNA, in colorized list. Administrator – Volodymyr Bodnar.
  • I2a1b – according YFull tree.
  • I2a1b2a1 – according ISOGG-2014, ISOGG-2015 and ISOGG-2016.
  • I2a1b2a1 – according Swedish haplogroup database [2015 year update]
  • I2a1b2a1 defines the last group (approved by SNP CTS10228) in chain of SNPs.
  • I2a1b3 (L621/S392) according wiki page for I-M170
  • I2c1b1a1 – on the same FTDNA group, but on SNP page. Bernie Cullen answers, that it’s computer error in coding of aliases. I2a1b the most accurate to describe haplogroup subclade.
  • I2a2 ‘Dinaric’ – according I2a Haplogroup on FTDNA colorized list. Administrator – Bernie Cullen and Zdenko Markovic.

ISOOG Updates: 2014, 2015 (Jan), 2015 (Jun), 2015 (Dec), 2016 (Jan, Apr – still relevant):

ISOOG_M423_2016_Jan

Haplogroups/subclades table.

Swedish haplogroup database is the only one, which has always information up to date. Based on this resources and many other I decided to recollect info in summarized form of combined names (alias + SNP name + year/age based on 23andme info, YFULL, FTDNA, YSEQ and some short details from Wikipedia):

alias SNP Age Details
 IJ M429 30.5-46.2kya Ancestral HGs IJ-M429* probably would have entered Europe through the Balkan track sometime before the LGM. They then subsequently split into Hg J and Hg I in Middle East and Europe in a typical disjunctive phylogeographic pattern.
 I M170+ 15.3-30.0 kya Predominantly a European haplogroup and it is considered as the only native European Haplogroup. It can be found in the majority of present-day European populations with peaks in Northern and South-Eastern Europe. Aurignacian culture (32–26 ka).
 I2 M438+ 28kya Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) which lasted from 26.5 ka to 19 or 20 ka.
A new culture known as the Gravettian (28–22 ka).  moved westward across the continent. The Gravettian people introduced new stone tool technology
 I2a L460+ 11kya Concentrated in eastern Europe and western Russia, reaching levels of 40% in Bosnia and 30% in Croatia. Balkans.
 I2a1 P37+ 10.7±4.8kya Two examples of I2a1 have been found in the DNA of Neolithic farmers. They were among the burials in the Cave of Treilles in Aveyron, in the South of France. The Treilles culture of c. 3000 BC is the very last phase of the Neolithic in the region before the arrival of copper-workers and the Bell Beaker culture.
 I2a1b M423+ 8.8±3.6kya  Dinaric, Disles, Isles.
The most frequent in Central and Eastern European populations, reaching its peak in the Western Balkans, most notably in Dalmatia (50-60%) and Bosnia-Herzegovina (up to 71%, avg. 40-50%). A greater variance of this group has been found in Ireland and Great Britain, but overall frequency is very low (2-3%). I-M423 is virtually absent in Fennoscandia, Western and Southwestern Europe (Wikipedia)
 I2a1b2 L621+ 6.8-5kya,

formed 11300, TMRCA 6500

The high concentration of I2a1b-L621 in north-east Romania, Moldova and central Ukraine reminds of the maximum spread of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE) before it was swallowed by the Indo-European Corded Ware culture.
Ancient DaciansThraciansIllyrians
 I2a1b2a CTS4002, Y3110+,  formed 6500, TMRCA 5500 Not tested, but 99.99% sure, that I positive. Because it’s in between.
 I2a1b2a1 CTS10228+
aka CTS5966
aka L147.2
formed 5500, TMRCA 2200 My officially assigned SNP by FTDNA. It describes many Dinaric DNA bearers. During 2015 year it’s expanded into a few different branches.

Source 1 – BalticSeaFTDNAGroup:

people I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ which are a remains of Venedi Peoples from Roman Empire period (see the location of the Venedi in the upper Vistula region and south of Polesian Lowland in times of the Roman empire under Hadrian (ruled 117-138), source Vistula_Veneti.

 I2a1b2a1a S17250 TMRCA 2100 Negative for me. Current locations of tested people: BLR/UKR/CZE.

Source 1 – BalticSeaFTDNAGroup:

S17250 is divided further into at least three subclades, maybe represented 3 area of settlement/3 tribes groups:

  • Z16971 (probably White Croats  descendants),
  • Y4882 (probably a Drevlyans and Dregoviches descendants),
  • A356/Z16983 (probably Moravians descendants).

Eupedia:

The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south is probably just due to another founder effect due to the fact that the South Slavs originated in western Ukraine, where the ratio of I2a to R1a was higher. Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the CTS10228 (aka CTS5966 or L147.2) subclade, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago.

 I2a1b2a1b Y4460+ TMRCA 2200 Age: 1991 ybp. Positive for me.

Source 1 – BalticSeaFTDNAGroup:

Y4460 possible a remnant of the Baltic Veneti

Eupedia:

Most modern Eastern Europeans belonging to I2a1b fit into the L147.2 (aka CTS10228, CTS2180 or Y3111) subclade, which is thought to have arisen 5,600 years ago (just before the Yamna period and the Trypillian expansion into the steppe), but has a TMRCA of only 2300 years according to Yfull. The minority of I2a1b-L621 individuals negative for L147.2 are all found around eastern Poland, Belarus and western Ukraine, suggesting that this is where this lineage survived since the Chalcolithic. The I2a1b-L147.2 subclade seems to have expanded very fast from 1900 years ago, which is concordant with the timing of the Slavic ethnogenesis, considering that it takes a few centuries before one man can have enough male descendants to start having an impact at the scale of a (small but fast-growing) population.

 I2a1b2a1b1 Y3118 TMRCA 2200 Negative for me. YFULL reported locations of tested people: USA/POL/FIN
 I2a1b2a1b2a? Y16810? TMRCA 1800 Age: 1815 ybp. Not tested, but probably negative.
YFULL reported locations: UKR, LVA.
 I2a1b2a1b2? A6105- A6106-  TMRCA
1800
Age formula the has similar year range/deviation as for Y16810.
 I2a1b2a1b3? S8201 TMRCA 1450 Age: 1443 ybp. Negative for me. YFULL reported locations: UKR, BLR.
I2a1b2a1b4? SK1241
Y31845?
TMRCA 1450 Age: 1894 ybp. YFULL reported locations: HUN, RU. Negative for me.
 I2a1b2a1c Z17855 TMRCA 1650 Negative for me. YFULL reported locations of tested people: UKR. Based on map by Krzysztow most of tested people are from Balkan countires (Bulgaria, Macedonia, Romania, Bosnia, Croatia).
I2a1b2a1d Y2512/A2512  TMRCA 2100 Not tested. But 99% that is negative. Current locations of tested people: UKR+BLR

FamilyTreeDNA data/results

This is screenshot from FTDNA site, data is not changed very frequently, which is bad.

CTS10228_Feb-24-2016_by_FTDNA

Green color means that haplogroup I-CTS10228 is confirmed (Since this SNP has many people tested/confirmed haplogroup named by name of main SNP). Previously I have I-P37 as only predicted haplogroup, but in red color. Now it’s 100% I-P37, because it’s ancestor for I-CTS10228.

I am Y4460+ since Feb-2015, but only May-28-2016, FTDNA updated my confirmed haplogroup:

2016-05-28-confirmed-haplogroup

Nov-2016: FTNDA still doesn’t give ability to order A6105 or A6106, so I ordered it via YSEQ (see below).

 

SNPs

Besides FTDNA service, many other services keep up to date haplogroups information.

Eupedia.com

On closer level of subclades, we can narrow areas, and analyze SNPs only. Here is time-related graph by Bernie Cullen in 2010 year. Here is Oct-2016 snapshot of haplogroup SNPs tree by Eupedia (they do not update frequently):

 

YFULL.com

YFULL service is the fastest and the latest always. Here is L621 level (Aug-2015) and below is Y4660 branch:

 

Note:

  • Green ellipse is about my tested markers, where I am positive.
  • Red – negative.
  • Grey dotted circled is NOT YET tested by me, but maybe later I will order the test
  • Grey but solid – it’s very probable I’m negative to that marker/SNP.

Here is current chain of SNPs/haplogroups which I do positively belong to:

M429 -> M170 -> M438-> L460 -> P37 -> M423 -> L621 -> CTS4002 -> CTS10228 -> Y4460 -> (?).

This is full path, based on YFULL (I-L621).

I2aProject blog

To get more vision about structure of close to me SNPs, I extracted piece of SNP chart/structure from i2haplogroup blog. Geneticists from that blog work mainly with FTDNA data, but they also keep watching on YFULL and YSEQ. Below is the list of updates following i2a blog:

Info from i2aProject blog about colors:

light-green is about Dinaric-North cluster, brown color is a about Jewish cluster. light-violet is Mediterranean (Greek) cluster. On bigger format there is also Dinaric-South colored cluster, which has now dedicated SNP – PH908 (sub to S17250).

YSEQ.net

Below is a M423 Panel SNPs review only  those which are related to me with exact my results. Such hierarchy representation is much better than pure table (IMHO). But this tree doesn’t show all SNPs, but still:

 

First, I ordered A6105 and it turned out as C- (negative for me). It’s how YSEQ results looked at that time. Then I ordered M423 panel to see A-6106 (C-) and other SNPs. And in May-2017 I ordered SK1241 (C-). YSEQ answered me (Feb-2017):

“Your final branch is I2-Y4460*
All downstream branches have been confirmed ancestral (=negative).”

Also SK1242 G-.

Here is my full results page but a bit “beautified” and “historified” by me using Spreadsheet:

 

L621 Google Map

Plus, there is great google map, created Oct-2015 by Krzysztof Narog.

STR => Dinaric race

First of all, here is good example of explanation what is SNP and what is STR, and why we need both yet.

This data set is very important – it’s main set of my Y Chromosome data, transformed in more human-readable format:

FTDNA_STR_certificate

There are a few online services, where you cane use this names and numbers and analyze your Y-Chromosome.

Based on Y-DNA-67-markers-data-set, Haplogroup predictor update information about more precisely belonging to Dinaric:

  • I-M423-Din-N =>73% (Dinaric, North)
  • I-M423-Din-S =>27% (Dinaric, South)

I know many new discoveries were introduced by Bernie Cullen in I2 haplogroup public email. To get more clarity here is part of public accessible email correspondence between Bernie Cullen, Kennet Nordtvedt and whole I2 Haplogroup community.

2014 Updates

  • Feb-2014. “We knew that CT10228 and CTS5966  exactly defined the big Eastern European branch of IP37. But we still didn’t know any SNPs that divided this big and important group. The only division known was Ken Nordvedt’s, based on two STR values”:

Dinaric-North has DYS448=20 and DYS449=32 or similar, and is usually found in northeast Europe.
Dinaric-South has DYS448=19 and DYS449=30 or similar, and is usually found in southeast Europe.
The vast majority of I-L621 men belong to a group called Dinaric, which has distinctive STR markers (especially DYS565=9). Dinaric is very common in Eastern Europe and present at much lower levels in Western Europe.

So, as I see, I have DYS448=19 but DYS449=32, which doesn’t fit above to above !!!

Around 12 Dinarics have tested S17250 as part of Big Y or at YSEQ. All 5 Dinaric-South men were S17250+, and some Dinaric-North men were S17250+ and other Dinaric-North men were S17250-. The division between Dinaric-South and Dinaric-North is based on two STR markers and this division is not always a perfect reflection of genetic history.

So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of course.

  • Nov-2014. by Bernie Cullen:

— Dinarics are derived for M423 and equivalents, L621 and equivalents, CTS10936 and equivalents, and CTS10228 (which is equivalent to CTS5966)
— L147.2 is equivalent to CTS10936 and CTS10228
— as far as I can tell, the Big Y result also confirm that L69.2 is equivalent to L621
— Dinarics all match Ken Nortvedt’s Dinaric modal STR haplotype, and they have DYS565=9; but Disles, I-L161, and the I-CTS595 groups all have DYS565=11
–P41.2/M359.2 is very rare and none of these Big Y testes are derived.

  • Nov-2014.  A few quotes listed below:

The I-CTS10228 “Dinaric” haplogroup is very large and many new SNPs and branches have been discovered in the past 12 months.

I-CTS10228 “Dinaric” is a young group and its members share a lot of history. Older groups like I-M26 and I-L161 are more like collections of ancient lineages that have been living in the same part of the world for many thousands of  years, and I think it’s somewhat arbitrary to talk aboutI-M26 vs. a more specific group like I-L160 or a more general group likeI-CTS595. it’s just that I-M26 was discovered first. But the I-CTS10228 level looks like exactly the right level to talk about when you want to talk about the lineage of I-P37 which rapidly expanded in Eastern Europe in the last 2,000+ years.

There are three branches known below CTS10228:
I-S17250 which is the largest branch and includes all Dinaric-S people who have done tests. It also includes many Dinaric-N people. People belonging to this group are from all over: Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Germany, Czech
Republic, Slovakia, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Croatia and probably many other countries.There are many known subbranches of I-S17250, and many of the Dinaric-S people belong to the I-Z16983/A356 branch.
I-Y4460  is less common, and so far its members have ancestry from NE Europe: Poland, Ukraine, Latvia, Finland. We know some subbranches ofI-Y4460.
I-Z17855 which as far as I know includes one man with ancestry from Greece and one with ancestry from Ukraine.

2015 Updates

  • May-2015. And besides well known BigY test, YSEQ company/service have recent update by introducing M423 panel. Colors don’t reflect any my tests. It’s just for visualization.
  • Jun-23-2015:
    • Y3110 is on the same level as CTS10936.
    • Y3111 is on the same level as CTS10228 and CTS5966.
  • Jun-24-2015. I2-L621 community increases number of SNPs, which were undefined before. Which is very good. Here is quote of Zdenko Markovic from my emailing with him:

There is a I-L621 draft tree from April 2015 and newly discovered branches below I-CTS10228. It seems that STR based Dinaric Southerns belong to the cluster below S17250. There are also some Din-N subbranches below S17250. There is no SNP which unify Din-S. Instead, there is starlike expansion of Din-S cluster. There is similar situation in some other haplogroups which experienced a sudden and rapid expansion.

  • Aug-2015. According the latest update, there is new branch I-Y2512 according i2a blog or A2512 in YSEQ naming:

Almost everyone in I-CTS10228 belongs to one of three branches: I-S17250, I-Y4460 or I-Z17855. But there are a few people who are CTS10228+ and S17250- Y4460- Z17855-.
We now know that there is a fourth branch called I-Y2512. Two people have done Big Ys which show that they belong to this group: kit 4605 from the “Jewish Dinaric” cluster, and kit N80837 who has Greek ancestry and is part of the Mediterranean Dinaric cluster. Kit 54093 has also received Y2512+ results from YSeq, he is also part of the Mediterranean Dinaric cluster and more specifically the New Mexico Dinaric cluster. Finally there is an anonymous sample (GS000018440-DID) from Chuvashia that was sequenced by the Estonian Biocentre and found to belong to I-Y2512.

  • Aug-28-2015 by Bernie Cullen:

Again, I am not the best person to answer these kinds of questions. But I think all of I-CTS10228 “Dinaric” was part of the Slavic expansion, and maybe some people think it was also part of some slightly earlier expansions. I-Z16971 group shows this: we have members from Russia, Serbia, Czech Rep. Slovakia, Ukraine, Poland, North Caucuses. So probably I-Z16971’s paternal ancestors came to Germany from the east. For the eastern parts of Germany, maybe in some cases the I-CTS10228 people were already living in regions that later became Germanized. And in other cases I-CTS10228 people moved west into German speaking regions.

  • Dec-10-2015. Quote from Zdenko Markovic as a reply to my email:

… there are other project members who have I-Y4460* result. Some of them have or are expecting Big Y results. Maybe we find another branch, maybe not. FTDNA does not offer A6105, Y8942 SNP tests. A6105 is available at YSeq.net. I2a-A6105 group has a few characteristic STR values which you do not have. It is better to wait until eventually new branches below Y4460 are found.

2016 Updates

  • Feb-2016 update about top-level race, ethnographic related subclades:

What is I-S21825? It is all of I-P37 except I-M26 and I-M423. That means I-S21825 includes the rare I-L233 “Western” branch and the much rarer I-Y11949 “Alpine”, I-L1294 “France”, and I-L880 “Northern France” branches. P37, M26, S21825, M423, L621 and L161 each have dozens of equivalent SNPs, but CTS595 is the only known SNP at its level. Therefore I-P37 split into three branches almost simultaneously (into the I-M26, I-S21825 and I-M423 branches).

  • Feb-24-2016. I found interesting web site “MorleyDNA.com Y-SNP Subclade Predictor (beta since 2013)”, where I can provide list of SNPs and see predicted haplogroup. Format: “CTS10228+, Y4460+, S8201-, Y3118-, Z17855-, S17250-“. And here is how page result looks here.
  • Mar-11-2016. YSEQ released new version o I2-M423 panel (set of SNPs which are closely related. Not all listed on below images !!!). Here is snapshot of Mar-2016 set of SNPs.
  • Mar-2016 by Zdenko Markovic as a reply on my email/question “What exactly STR characteristics?And are those differences applied to A6106 also? If not, does/would it make sense to order A6106 in future?”:

First four persons from I2a-A6105 group have DYS19=17 as a characteristic value. You have DYS19=16. Recently, we received one A6105+ result with DYS19=16. At the moment we can call that group I-A6105 or I-A6106 because both SNPs are at the same level.

  • Jun-2016. Bernie Cullen updated via mass email to I2a members, that:

Ken’s Disles is L621+ but CTS10228-. You could call some Disles men I-L621* and others I-CTS4002*. Ken’s Dinaric group is I-CTS10228. Ken’s Dinaric-North group is complex and belongs to many different branches of I-CTS10228. Ken’s Dinaric-South group all belongs to the more specific I-S17250 branch. But this branch also includes some Dinaric-North men. Ken identified a Jewish Dinaric cluster (in Dinaric-North), we now know that these men are part of the I-A2512 branch and aren’t closely related to most other Dinaric branches.

  • Aug-28-2016. Bernie Cullen updated blog i2a with new post:

… tree shows that the Dinaric-South group belongs to the I-PH908 branch. PH908 is a SNP that was first reported in the Pille Hallast survey in 2014. This SNP is not covered by the Big Y test and most those who have Big Y test result have no call status for PH908… PH908 could be a characteristic SNP for the Dinaric South cluster.

  • Sep-2016. Zdenko Markovic via email:

So far it seems that A6105 and A6106 are at the same level. That does not mean that those SNP mutations happened at the same time. We do not know which is older because all persons who had tested both A6105 and A6106 received both positive results. I would recommend that you test one of these SNP.

The Dinaric-South group is defined by the STR marker values DYS448=19 and a low value for DYS449 (for example DYS449=30). We now know that the Dinaric-South cluster is defined by the SNP called PH908.
The Dinaric-North group is defined by the STR marker values DYS448=20 and a high value for DYS449 (for example DYS449=32). The Dinaric-North group is more complex and there is no single SNP that is specific to Dinaric-North and which excludes Dinaric-South.

  • Nov-05-2016. YFULL updated I-Y4460 tree, and new parent branch appeared – I-Y3106, which now contains Y16810 (A6105, A6106), S8201, Y3118. Looks like there is some common Y-DNA characteristic for all of mentioned SNPs. So far I’m negative for all of them. So I may assume, that 50% I have some original Y-DNA on the very top level of Y4460 or some child branch has not been discovered yet.
  • Nov-11-2016. My YSEQ M423-Panel results shows me, that I’m also positive for CTS10228 neighbor branchV4023 but negative for A6106 as a child branch of Y4460. Here is latest on Oc-22-2016 (when I ordered panel for sale price). And here is Nov-2016 updated full panel SNPs(actual update date Oct-31).
  • Nov-19-2016, Zdenko Markovic suggest:

… those who have Y4460+ result in their Big Y test results also have Y3108+ result. Those who are in the I-Y4460* haplogroup could test Y3106. It is not available at YSeq, but they can put it in their SNP list through the Wish SNP order.

… there is also the fourth shared novel variant in the DYZ19 repeat region.
… I-A2512 people from Belarus and Ukraine are from Jewish diaspora. They belong to the more recent I-A11372 subgroup (or I-Y23115 in the YFull tree). Interestingly, all other I-A2512 (xA11372) participants are from Greece.

2017 Updates

  • Feb-16-2017. I discovered, that YFULL reorganized structure of Y4460, and Y16810 moved as sub-branch to A6105. A6106 still remain on the same level as A6105.
  • Feb-17-2017. New SNP appeared on YFULL: Y4460 > id: YF08522.
  • Feb-17-2017. By Bernie Cullen:

    YFull confirmed that YF07799 (ancestry Slovenia) is A6105+ A6106+ Y16810-. And a new Big Y was completed yesterday for a man with Belarus ancestry, I think it is A6105+ A6106+ but I see no result reported for Y16810. Zdenko will be able to do a better analysis.

  • Mar-14-2017 by Bernie Cullen from FTDNA I2a-hap-group page:

    … one Big Y was completed on February 15, 2017, paternal ancestors from Belarus. He was the fifth Big Y for I-A6106. He is also A6105+, and no result was reported for Y16810 therefore he is likely Y16810-. He has 13 unique novel variants not reported in any previous Big Y, so probably his common ancestor with the other I-A6106 men lived more than 1000 years ago. To my knowledge he has not ordered the YFull analysis. His result is already shown on Zdenko’s Feb 2017 I-L621 draft tree.

  • Mar-23-2017 from FTDNA I2a-hap-group

    BigY results explained for Mr. Back (YF08522), Undefined Belarusian man (YF05044 – Yurkevich ?), new branch ERR1025605 (Vologda region in Russia).

  • Apr-10-2017 by Łukasz Łapiński on Facebook “Genealogia Genetyczna“:

    I2: 194 SNiPy, 60 gałązek. Interesująca nas “słowiańska” L621 powiększyła się tylko o 5 próbek:
    – próbka węgierska stworzyła nową linię wraz z archeologiczna próbką z Rosji pod Y4460
    – inna próbka daje nową linię (A14973) wraz podkarpacką pod BY128/Y5596. Datacja +-1300 lat (!)
    – tuż obok dwie próbki Rosja/Ukraina kombinują nową rodzinę o nazwie A5875 (podobny wiek)
    – nowa linia z serbską próbką pod “Kownatowską” PH908 (“czasy chrystusowe”)

  • Apr-2017 added SK-1241 on yfull.
  • May-2017 I tested by YSEQ: SK1241 C-, SK1242 G-.
  • Jun-08-2017. YF10004 – new under SK1241/SK1242/Y31845. Also

… there is a second CTS10228+ A2512- Y4460- Z17855- S17250-, this man has paternal ancestry from Alsace (southwestern Germany/France border area, now part of France). The Polish-ancestry and Alsatian-ancestry man don’t share any unique novel variants/SNPs.

Notes

  • Looks like Y4460 may represent Vistula Venedi ancestry (2016 theory).
    • Not sure yet, but guess, if I was A6105 pr A6106 positive, I would expect Belorussian ancestry.
    • New SNP SK1241 seems to be Hungary related. I do forecast, that I may be positive, due to Carpathian relation, and some Hungarian surnames relatives in my village. UPD: But I am negative, based on YSEQ May-13-2017 test results – SK1241 C-, SK1242 G-.
  • Research S17250 and PH908 in regards to Croats, White Croats, and as Carpathian ancestry. Dec-31-2016 L621 update on i2aproject shows colorful separation between  L621 sub branches.
  • ISOOG and YFULL keep all the time tree updated with new SNPs. FTDNA keep watching on them, but website doesn’t reflect all latest changes, which is bad.
  • Research Dinaric race and historical research of whole Balkans plus Eastern-Europe and I2 haplogroup subclades is still relevant, but since S17250 is not my direct ancestral SNP I left this research for later..
  • I received mtDNA results time ago -> “H” haplogroup (maternal line), but not yet finished post here on blog. Anyway there are many items to research, which may help me to clarify intersection between races, and locations and different ancestral directions.
  • Besides Y-DNA and mtDNA tests, I made atDNA test via FTDNA (Family Finder test). More details here and here and here.

Resources

Main DNA sites:

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Predictors:

Y-DNA public email:

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39 thoughts on “I2a1b2a1 aka I-CTS10228

  1. Andrii, I just received my Y67 results recently also. The Haplogroup Predictor has me 100% I-P37.2, I 423 Dinaric North 91% and South 9%. We are very close to the same tribe. All of my relatives claimed to be Polish but my paternal lineage is traced back to Khrabuzna, Khmelnitsky, Ukraine. I just tested at YSEQ with S17250+ and have a BigY results coming this month some time.
    Why do you suppose there is so little said about our clade on line? R1 seems to get the lions share of the focus. Thanks for posting your information.

  2. Thanks for the reply. I had not seen your previous post. I just translated it from google translate and it is informative. There is a huge debate that has developed regarding I2a that it did not come from Southern Europe but from South Siberia. Also, there is very little said regarding Polish Ethnicity in these studies and I am curious why that is so. I think part of the reason is that when I google my suspected clade (which now is I2a1b2a ISOGG) most of the remaining hits are in Cyrillic which I do not know. Thanks for your time and effort. Well done.

    • I somewhat agree with you. But I’m not so close in this direction of research now, but anyway I have in my plans. Currently I relocated to Krakow (Poland) so sooner or later I will continue my research.

      If you have any questions related to Cyrillic, u can let me know via facebook or my email (LANDIKE @ GMAIL.COM), I may help you.

  3. Friends, I-Y3548 is White Croatian mutation from southern Poland…Croats have I-Z16983 I2a1b2a1a3 A356…This means that migration of Croats from White Croatia went in more directions…After Croatian I2a1b2a1a3 A356 there are new mutations in Czech Republic…That are Croats fled from Turks five hundred years ago……I-Y4882, I-Z16983, I-Z16971, I-Y3548* mutations are White Croatian origin…It is in branch I-S17250… Greetings from Croatia..

      • Needs to see which exactly haplotype you have becouse I-L621 is about five thousand years old……I-S17250 mutation is old two thousand years and can not be connected with White Croatia because White Croatia does not exist then…Croats came from southern Poland to Balkans with two basic haplotypes I2a1b2a1a3 and R1a Z280 CTS3402 Y2608… Here are map for R1a https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zCFuZT9R8rxg.krb35UvaRd3c&hl=en

        Theoretically behind your I-L621 excluding mutation I-S17250 are mutations which exist in the time of White Croatia or White Croats….but needs to see where their previously mutations are in the Poland or Ukraine …. if they are somewhere in north Poland or Germany they would not be considered as White Croatian origin..

        What this means that you are negative for S17250 ?…because Croatian I-S17250 has I-CTS10228 earlier mutation ….I did not really understand negative and positive meaning I guess you do not have S17250 or you do not belong to that branch…

      • As I updated blog with pos/neg SNPs, it’s based on tests from FTDNA. That’s it. Yes, CTS10228 (main green postive marker for me) is on the same level as L621 for now. But sooner or later they will go into different branches.

        For me and the same as for for Croatians and for many Polish and Belarusian and Ukrainian people, “I-S17250-” that we have the same ancestor. So the questions is from where he was, and where was located and spread afterwards. So if I am negative for S17250, I will be negative for all subclades/SNPs.

  4. I2a1b2a1 CTS5966, CTS10228, L147.2
    • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1* –
    • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204
    • • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a* –
    • • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a1 Z16971
    • • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a2 Y4882
    • • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983

    http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

    We should wait for your results and then we’ll know more …. All I know about I2a haplogroup is that was not Indo-European…It is possible that in recent past was Gothic during one period , or exist in time Vistula Venets in Poland ….It’s my thinking but I could be wrong, except Indo-European origin that is for sure…

    movement I2a haplogroup throughout history

    http://docslide.us/documents/comments-about-haplogroup-i-tree-and-conjectured-spread-map-the-haplogroup-i-tree-is-constructed-from-snp-information-plus-variance-age-estimates-for-the.html

    • I don’t wait for anything. I’ve done test enough to hold on 🙂 Otherwise I will spend all my money 🙂
      My current results, as I stated in text above:
      S17250(-), Y3118(-), CTS10228(+), Y4460(+) and Z17855(-)
      And I only wait for FTDNA/YFULL/YSEQ to extend all possible information about SNP structure.
      I do wait for Bernie Cullen suggestions what next SNP I can pick up, for additional testing, if FTDNA needs for deeper research.
      Provided link shows me diagram of movement, which I researched time ago, as I stated in my previous blog entry to related topic (linked in this topic at the beginning).

      And what is really on waiting status in haplogroups community – is “Yamnaya” full analysis.

      For this purpose, I do follow this blogger:
      https://genetiker.wordpress.com/

  5. Please pardon my naivete. I was looking through the dv3 analysis image and noticed that there isn’t an annotation for anyone that is Polish. I have noticed this in other documentation also. It is a curiosity to me. Have you noticed this proclivity elsewhere also?

  6. Hi there. Have you tested the S8201 SNP? I’m also S17250- and Y4460+ and waiting for result, but I’ve not tested the Z17855 and Y3118 yet.

  7. Hi Andrii!
    I just received a positive result for Y4460 for my male line that I am researching from Latvia. (Also S17250-). Just saying hello and thanks for providing all the reading resources here in your blog!
    I’ll be following for new developments for our haplogroup!

  8. Oh, good to know, thanks!

    I compared all the STR-sets (who has at least 67 markers) from I-Y4460* section of I2a Project and got this result: http://i.imgur.com/YF91jJh.png

    It looks like there are two different and still “undiscovered” branches under Y4460: the first one is mine + Daujotas from Lithuania, and the second one is yours + two guys from Ukraine and Hungary. Although it’s just STRs and the number of samples is too small for any conclusion to be drawn.

    I’m still waiting for Big Y result and I’m going to order the analysis on yfull.com to get as many information as I can.

  9. Here is quote of Zdenko Markovic (Dec-10-2015):

    … as you may have noticed, there are other project members who have I-Y4460* result. Some of them have or are expecting Big Y results. Maybe we find another branch, maybe not.

    FTDNA does not offer A6105, Y8942 SNP tests. A6105 is available at YSeq.net. I2a-A6105 group has a few characteristic STR values which you do not have. It is better to wait until eventualy new branches below Y4460 are found.

  10. Wow! So by chance I visited my ftdna Y haplogroup info and the tree has been updated. Have added Y3548, Y4882 and A7358! I am amazed and very curious to see if there are any matches for A7358. It should bring my MRCA to about 1500 years ago. A blink in geologic time. Here is an image of the tree: http://www.singingfalls.com/images/dna/ftdna_tree_02292016.png
    I also wanted to thank you personally again for inspiring me to put together a blog of my own on the topic.
    http://www.singingfalls.com/dna.html
    Wielkie dzięki! Велике дякую!

    • @Stanley, you are welcome. Glad to help in any possible case/method.
      In my case I’m negative for Y3548 aka S17250. And so far, I wait for some time, so more bigY results come around. The nearest test I would take is A6106.
      As far as I see from http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y4882/ A7358 has no representation yet. IMHO, it would mean stable meaning that marker exists and able/suggested to use. But I’m not specialist in this area.

  11. There is drama around A7358 😉 I was contacted by an individual who told me there is another person from Poland who has SNP A7358. I made contact with his data manager to see if he would make this information public but he was very hesitant. This was some months ago. In the interim YSEQ made the test available for anyone interested in testing for it. http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=24&products_id=18658&osCsid=63d4ca5eec2c2dbf0c9c049f5ef2a46b So even though the individual didn’t go public the test is available for those who wish to test for downstream of I-Y4882. The fact that FTDNA put A7358 in my tree tells me that I have more closer cousins out there and that you are correct for a stable SNP at that allele
    🙂

    • In regards to I-Y4460, where I’m positive, the only one new test is A6106, and I am not in a hurry to take it. Although FTDNA has it as visible on page and available, for me it’s not selectable. And I can’t pick it up by Advanced order/search. So I think I will wait some time.
      In regards of YSEQ, I guess I have to pass DNA material to them, so they can test me, and I don’t have such plan. I stick with FTDNA instead.

      A7358 not for me, but as far as I see, now it’s official SNP, but still not available on FTDNA.

    • It’s not a big deal, naming changes. It’s normal AFAIK, because it happens. “No matter how you name the car, matters how car is driving …”. And in fact it’s since Jun-2015. I have locally screenshot (YSEQ_I2a-M423 Panel_2015-Jun.png) so … And besides, it’s YSEQ naming, it’s not ISOGG yet. AFAIK ISOGG is the standard.

    • I think, that majority is enough. Considering the fact, that there are closed communities, who does not interact with other people, they could be derived from very ancient DNA. I believe in DNA analysis and science, and we step-by-step go to somewhere 🙂

  12. Thanks for the update. The latest on my subclade I-A7358. I found one individual in the Slovakia group and two others in the RussianDNA group and one individual who is from Poland. The fact that we are scattered throughout Eastern Europe I suspect the number of clade members will increase over time as you suggest elsewhere in your progress. It is estimated that my MRCA is 1750 to 1500 years ago. Things are moving quickly so your patience Andrii will pay off.

  13. P.S. I signed up for MyHeritage this week. I am impressed by the amount of connections I have in Poland from just one side of the family. What amazes me is that I have searched for over a year for individuals with my surname and could find nothing. Now I have them in abundance.

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