I-Y4460 [ydna] aka I2a1b2a1a1b

UPD: The latest, 2018 article is about Big Y test results analysis, read here.

This is about Y4460 ydna haplogroup which is a sub branch for of CTS10228. It’s time to research deeper to Y chromosome, considering timeframe ~2300 years ago, when new man was born with mutation, which caused Y4460 Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) in his population genome.

For those who reads this first time, I recommend to read my first article “R1a vs. I2a“. Then more detailed article – I2a1b2a1 aka I-CTS10228, which is about my 2014/2017 research results. Since 2014 year many things happened, many discoveries done, and it’s time to have a look closer to I2a Dinaric YDNA genetics.

My goal of this article is to define details about my belonging to I2a haplogroup clade. Ideally, logical end of this article will be BigY results with newly found terminal SNP, which explains mutated DNA from my father, which defines me as different person – new person in genealogical tree I research since 2003 year.

This post intended to be also always-updated, as soon as new information arrived, but strictly related to Y4460 and downstream branches. That parent article will remain up to date, but only regards that parent level.


According to 2017 update in March, by Eupedia.COM team, Y4460 is a neighbor haplogroup to S17250 and Z17855, and all represent Slavic countries:

Here is information from FTDNA group “Baltic Sea“.

In 2014 results of BigY Survey Program give us a new portion of knowledge about a big and not structured up till now part of Slavic languages people I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ which are a remains of Venedi Peoples from Roman Empire period (see the location of the Venedi in the upper Vistula region and south of Polesian Lowland in times of the Roman empire under Hadrian (ruled 117-138). It is divided between two or tree subclades: S17250 – majority of tested, and Y4460 possible a remnant of the Baltic Veneti, and maybe Z17855. S17250 is divided further into at least three subclades, maybe represented 3 area of settlement/3 tribes groups: Z16971 (probably White Croats  descendants), Y4882 (probably a Drevlyans and Dregoviches descendants), A356/Z16983 (probably Moravians descendants). Y4460 is divided further into two subclades: Z16973 (with subbranch Y3118 and S8201/Y8942) and Y13498.

I also confirmed above theory with Stanislaw Plewako via email, and he assured me, that there is work in progress related to this topic. So I keep watching…

Eupedia.COM gives me the information in more historical and geographical area. But as genetics say, this topic is under many questions. So far, I keep watching, analyze, and maybe later I will publish my own research in this direction. But at the moment, this article is about only genetics.

Another source is quote from YFULL facebook group by Ted Kandell (Thanks to Srđan Vekić who brought that source to me):

The earliest expansion within I-CTS10228 is I-Y4460, with a tMRCA of 200 BCE. The earliest members of this subclade are a German from Hamburg (a formerly West Slavic region), and Russians, Belarussians, Ukrainians, and a few Finns. This fits well with the Antes, who were found in Ukraine and at this early stage seem to be indistinguishable from the ancestral Veneti from further north.
The origins of I-CTS10228 appear to be in the Baltic region among the ancestral (Vistula) Veneti (“Sarmatae Venedi”), the “Winden” or “Wends”, but they appear to have made a rapid migration to the far south within 250 years of their origin, perhaps with a few captives or mercenaries living in Greece. We should also be able to trace this Baltic-originated migration southward through the mtDNA and autosomal DNA.

Here is full version from rootsweb.com archive posted Mar-27-2017 by Didier Vernade with permission by Ted Kandell.




SNP is defined by ISOGG depends on place in tree of all parent branches. So if new parent branch found, the lace is changed, and haplogroup name is changed.

  • Previous versions: Jun-2017 (Y4460 was defined as I2a1b2a1b),
  • Version (Aug-2017) defined Y4460 as I2a1b2a1a1b,
  • Latest version (Jan-28-2018), after fix SNP name of S8201 no my request.
  • Sep-2018 (now as table/spreadsheet):

As alternative source, here is example (a bit out dated, but still) from http://dna-academy.ru, where we can see age of subclades:

So, ~2300 years ago, first mutation Y4460 appeared.


Słowiańska haplogrupa I2a-Dinaric (I2a-Slavic)




Note: I see such split into DinA, Dinb, DinC first time on this polish blog. Never saw it on FTDNA groups, but author mentioned this:

Nazewnictwo haplogrup I2a-Dinaric Zostało wprowadzone uproszczone autorskie nazewnictwo w ramach I2a-Dinaric przyjmując skrót Din dla I2a1b2a1a1 (I-Y3120), a dla kolejnych subclades w ramach Din litery i cyfry dodane do Din odpowiadające klasyfikacji ISOGG, np. DinA, DinB, DinB1a itd.


familytreedna.com [FTDNA]

Since 2014, I have my DNA materials on FamilyTreeDNA.com company. And I am Y4460+ since Feb-2015, but only May-28-2016, FTDNA updated my confirmed haplogroup. And in Apr-2018, I discovered some changes – new SNPs appeared for me to order, but YFULL shows I’m negative for all of them. Here is Jul-29-2018 snapshot (Y70430-, Y73542-, BY42256-, Y91535-, BY37524-, Y88617-, BY49264- for me):

I have Big Y test results, and I have more positive SNP now.  Detailed about Big Y here.


This is most up to date service, where I always see very recent news about SNPs and STRs. FTDNA is very slow in regards to updates. But as soon, as BigY test results in *.BAM file done by FTDNA, there is ability to upload it to yfull. And I plan to do it. But so far I don’t have BAM file from FTDNA, but I ordered YFULL analysis based on VCF file (from BigY test) and jan-13-2018 I’ve been added to YFULL tree as #YF11414. Snapshot Y4460 Jun-30-2018 (v6.02):

Other snapshots of Y4460: Oct-22-2015, Dec-07-2015, Nov-19-2016, Feb-16-2017, Apr-2017, May-2017, Jul-11-2017 (after YSEQ results analysis), Aug-05-2017, Sep-21-2017Sep-27-2017, Nov-29-2017 (v5.08), v6.02 (Jun-2017). There is latest version 6.03.41 (Jul-27-2018) and they started to update more frequent, but no significant changes under Y4460.


  • Green ellipse is about my tested markers, where I am positive.
  • Red crossing line – negative.
  • Grey dotted ellipse – NOT YET tested by me, but maybe later I will order the test

Here is current chain of SNPs/haplogroups which I do positively belong to:

I-P37 -> M423 -> L621 -> CTS10228 -> Y3120/Y3116/FGC12085 -> Y4460 -> (Y3106? B57?)

Note (after Big Y, my yDNA “Test Taken” has been updated), I’m:

  • S20602+ (on CTS10228 level)
  • Y3116+ (on Y3120 level)
  • FGC12085+ (on Y3120 level)


Here is quote of Zdenko Marković from email correspondence:

You do not have Y3106 (ChrY-hg38: 5,558,221, hg19: 5,426,262), result reported in your VCF file maybe because of small number of reads (less than 10). That is why we ask people to send their BAM files to YFull.

For more details about Y4460 subclades, here is my own made collage of information:

I’m negative for all major known sub branches of Y3106. But I may be positive to Y3106 itself (B57 kinda hint here). It would explain, that my YDNA ancestry has novel SNP somewhere after Y4460 but not into Y1306 (Jun-2017) known sub branches. So far on yfull, there is map of STRs for Y3106 (Aug-2017 snapshot):

If I understand correctly these 3 STRs (DYS439=13, DYS518=35, DYR173=24) should have DER value, and then person is defined as “belongs to”. Jun-2017 snapshot had other STRs in list. It was not clear about belonging, because I don’t have all STRs, which might require Y-DNA111 test or Big Y test. and Aug-2017 snapshot shows it much narrower. I have only DYS439 = 13, so I wait BigY results to shed the light here.

So far, represented people on all branches under Y4460 on yfull refer to countries (Aug-2018):

  • UKR 8 (on different levels, so UKR genetics might be very common for all nested. 2018: Y3118 get more UKR.)
  • BLR 4 (on different levels, so BLR genetics might be very common for all nested)
  • RUS 4 (inside of SK1241, A6105, Y3118)
  • POL 3 (inside of Y3118, S8201)
  • FIN 2 (inside of Y3118)
  • HUN 2 (inside of SK1241, Interesting. Maybe via fino-ugric relations with RUS?)
  • SVN 1 (inside of A6105)
  • LVA 1 (inside of A6105)
  • LTU 1 (inside of Y3118)
  • MDA 1 (inside of Y3118)
  • USA 1 (inside of Y3118)
  • SWE 1 (Y4460*)

This list is not necessary is definition of genetics-to-country belonging/relation. It’s rather simple statistics under Y4460, from which countries ancestry of DNA material is. Many examples are about being Ukrainian and Belorussian citizen, but ethnicity from Poland, or vice versa. Interesting, that UKR and BLR might be common genetic/DNA for all Y4460 nested branches. I suspect, it might be defined by Y3120/Y3116 SNPs somehow.


Blog keeps posted us with I2a haplogroup area – latest posts, about latest discoveries. And sometimes I find it useful if I make a decision to pass/order some YDNA test on FTDNA.

  • Note from FTDNA admins: B57 appears with note “not reported in BigY, should be checked in I-S8201”.
  • Feb-07-2018, new SNPs: Y101641, Y109860, Y110953. Comparing CSV data from Big Y results and YFULL VCF viewer I’m negative.
  • Feb-08-2018: I’ve been placed near to B57 SNP (FTDNA kit# 344010).
  • Jun-2018, I see B57 becomes more separate branch now. But still, neither BigY nor YFULL results shows me positive, in fact it’s “no call position”.



I also ordered dedicated kit from YSEQ.net, and time to time I order additional tests. So YSEQ.net is 2nd company, where I have my DNA materials sent. So far, based on YSEQ I’m: Y4460 A+, A2512 C-, A6105 C-, A6106 C-, SK1241 C-, SK1242 G-, B57+.

Jun-25-2017 ordered B57 SNP test, which looks like is the same level as Y3106. So far it shows, that B57 is downstream Y4460. Additionally, yfull.com shows it meanwhile at the same level as Y3106. New snapshot of all my YSEQ results, Jul-09-2017, Full image here – click to open large image. Updated Jan-13-2018 (hg38 based):


Also, here is updated YSEQ panel with a name “I2a-M423” (Jan-28-2018 still relevant). It’s cut only that piece which is related to me:

  • Wrapped by green rectangle are positive SNPs for me.
  • Wrapped by red rectangle are negative SNPs for me.



yseq.net has reference on its “Results Page” to ybrowse.org records. And exploring the site, it gives ability to research Y-DNA, in particular chromosome Y. Details here on ybrowse.

Here is examples.


  • hg19, position 9,028,830
  • hg38, position 9,191,221

It says, that mutation is from G to A. According to YSEQ I have Y4460 A+.


New B57 is positive for me: T+

  • hg19 position 17061171
  • hg38 position 14949291

B57 T+ means, that ancestral allele is C and derived is T (mutation from C to T).  And ybrowse also shows, that it’s located near to gene rs758101523 (no SNPedia info yet). And also shows FGC42725, but I’m not sure what does it mean. So far, FTDNA BigY results table doens’t have in Named SNPs, and YFULL shows me that it’s also “no call position” for me (hg38 position 14949595).



This site shows difference between hg19 and hg38, introduced by FTDNA and affected in YFULL service.




According to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov Chromosome Y “contains over 200 genes; contains over 50 million base pairs, of which approximately 50% have been determined“. There is chromosome Y MapViewer, where we can see exact location of mutation.

Y4460 (hg38, position 9,191,221)

So far, near to “hg19 9,028,830 position” there was/is no significant well defined genes. Not sure how important it can be, but the position is between TTTY24P and OFD1P3Y pseudogenes. Looking to hg38 position 9,191,221 USPDYP4 pseudogene.

B57 (hg38 position 14,949,291)

NCBI doesn’t have info about B57, but there is info about nearly located rs758101523. SNPedia.com doesn’t have any information yet.

Btw, above snapshots made withing assembly “GRCh38.p7 (GCF_000001405.33)” (2016/03/21). Because only 2 are available in dropdown. But the latest release of for genome standard is GRCh38.p12 (GCA_000001405.27) (2017/12/21).


(bookmarklet based on FTDNA YDNA Classic results page)

This is nice service, I used it time ago in 2015 for Family Finder bookmarklet. But FTDNA changed API then, so those bookmarklet don’t work anymore. But here is snapshot made by yDNA bookmarklet based on latest YFull 5.05 tree version.

Below snapshot is only based on FTDNA group DnagenExperiment

And here is how UkrainianDNA looks:

I will write a detailed post about dnagen.net soon.



L621 Google Map

by Krzysztof Narog.

Despite the name of map, it contains people grouped by FTDNA SNP/markers given by FTDNA groups administrators. So far, Y4460 is represented by region “Y4460 -> [S8201]+[A6105]+[Y4460*]” which is very wide. I discussed this map with Krzysztof, and he assured me, he will find a time to regroup regions, based on latest people’s results and latest FTDNA/YFULL SNP findings. After Sep-2018 map contains info about Daujotas man, but he marked as Y4460*. And there are similar 4 regions split over the Europe.


Y4460 map

link – found on forum Порекло.rs

Tree by Andelko Dermek

On FTDNA group page, I spotted on nice P37 tree visualization, and here is cut of Y4460:


2017 I-Y4460 Updates

  • Feb-16-2017. I discovered, that YFULL reorganized structure of Y4460, and Y16810 moved as sub-branch to A6105. A6106 still remain on the same level as A6105.
  • Feb-17-2017. New SNP appeared on YFULL: Y4460 > id: YF08522.
  • Feb-17-2017. By Bernie Cullen:
    YFull confirmed that YF07799 (ancestry Slovenia) is A6105+ A6106+ Y16810-. And a new Big Y was completed yesterday for a man with Belarus ancestry, I think it is A6105+ A6106+ but I see no result reported for Y16810. Zdenko will be able to do a better analysis.
  • Mar-14-2017 by Bernie Cullen from FTDNA I2a-hap-group page:
    … one Big Y was completed on February 15, 2017, paternal ancestors from Belarus. He was the fifth Big Y for I-A6106. He is also A6105+, and no result was reported for Y16810 therefore he is likely Y16810-. He has 13 unique novel variants not reported in any previous Big Y, so probably his common ancestor with the other I-A6106 men lived more than 1000 years ago. To my knowledge he has not ordered the YFull analysis. His result is already shown on Zdenko’s Feb 2017 I-L621 draft tree.
  • Apr-2017 added SK-1241 on yfull.
  • May-2017 I tested by YSEQ: SK1241 C-, SK1242 G-.
  • Jun-08-2017. YF10004 – new under SK1241/SK1242/Y31845.
  • Jun-27-2017 by Bernie Cullen on FTDNA group page:
    I-Y4460 is one of the four named branches of I-CTS10228 “Dinaric”, and it is the second most common branch (behind I-S17250). The I-Y4460 haplogroup prevails in eastern and northeastern Europe (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Baltic countries). All persons from this haplogroup are from the Dinaric North cluster.
    Almost all Y4460+ men are also Y3106+, kit 318578 is the only known Y4460+ Y3106- result.
    Because most Big Ys include a Y3106 result we can say that Y3106 is immediately below Y4660, and that most Y4660+ men are also Y3106+
  • Jun-27-2017, by Bernie Cullen from FTDNA i-2a-hap-group about concerns regarding to I-B57 (ybrowse):
    In my opinion, this placement is uncertain because very few Big Y results include the B57 position. It’s possible that YFull has knowledge of more Big Y results that are not shared with our project, but I think it’s unlikely that YFull knows the exact position of B57.
  • Jul-07-2017, I received B57 T+ by YSEQ.net.
  • Jul-13-2017, Bernie Cullen on FTDNA group page:
    Andrii, thank you for reporting your B57+ results. This is more evidence that B57 is equivalent to Y3106. I see that B57 is now included in the I2a-M423 SNP panel at YSeq.
  • Jul-15-2017, Zdenko Marković on FTDNA group page:
    @Andrii, thank you for your info regarding your B57+ result. This SNP is found in four I-Y4460 samples from Estonian Biocentre. One of these samples (Vepsas) belongs to the I-A6106, one (Litvania) to the I-Y3118 and two (Belarus) to the I-CTS5779 (the haplogroup below Y3118). Three Big Y result from the I-S8201 have no-call result and we do not know B57 status in this haplogroup. On the other side, YFull found one B57- result in one I-SK1241 sample from another survey. It seems that B57 is at the same level as Y3106. One B57 SNP test from I-S8201 is needed to confirm that.
  • Jul-30-2017, Roman Sychev answering my question on yfull facebook group, regrading Y3106 vs. B57:

This does not contradict the topology of the tree. You can belong to I-Y3106*… but if you have Y3116-, then you will split the current I-Y3106 branch.

Note: Y3116 is shown as additional SNP on level of Y3120, which is new SNP – parent for all Z17855, A2512, Y4460, S17250

  • Aug-01-2017, finally 🙂 I ORDERED BigY test. As Roberta Estes mentioned in her article “Big Y – $395 (Best price I’ve ever seen on this test.)”.
  • Aug-26-2017, I discovered, that ISOGG updated I haplogroup tree, by adding nested sub-branches to CTS10228 and Y4460, but no new branches under Y4460 yet.
  • Oct-2017, FTDNA changed their base algorithm from h19 to hg38. And there are some complexities with delivering BigY results and as result YFULL service compatibility. Hope all will be settled.
  • Nov/Dec-2017 received BigY results. Dedicated article in progress.
  • Dec-26-2017, Zdenko Marković: “You do not have Y3106 (ChrY-hg38: 5,558,221, hg19: 5,426,262), result reported in your VCF file maybe because of small number of reads (less than 10). That is why we ask people to send their BAM files to YFull.”

2018 I-Y4460 Updates

  • Jan-05-2018 YFULL upgraded from v5.08 to v6.01 but no changes in Y4460 branch.
  • Jan-05-2018 Stanislaw Plewako added/assigned me into subgroup Y4460 \ B57 on FTDNA Baltic Sea group.
  • Jan-13-2018 I ordered YFULL dna analysis based on VCF file, I have from BigY test by FTDNA company.
  • Jan-28-2018, I sent email to ISOGG support team and they fixed S2801 to proper SNP name S8201.
  • Feb-07-2018, new SNPs added (Details)
    • A2512 (Greek) => Y60804, Y66192, Y67548, Y79981.
    • Y4460 (Swedish) => Y101641, Y109860, Y110953. Comparing CSV data from Big Y results and YFULL VCF viewer I’m negative.
  • Feb-08-2018, After my comment on FTDNA, Bernie Cullen was surprised why I’m not yet added to CTS10228 draft tree, and after my explanation, draft was updated with info about my FTDNA dna kit, on the B57 level.
  • Jun-2018 i2aproject.blogspot.com: “update shows a 6th branch, another I-S20602* man who has ancestry from Germany. He doesn’t share any variants below S10602 with the Polish-ancestry man, or with any of the other 4 branches.Until recently, A2512, Y18331 and Y18332 were considered to be equivalent SNPs. But according to a recent Big Y, a man with Greek paternal ancestry is Y18331+ but A2512-. His result for Y18332 is currently unknown. So now I-Y18331 is one of the 6 basic branches of I-S20602, and I-A2512 is a subbranch of I-Y18331.


  • AFAIK, Dinaric-South is well defined by I-PH908. (which is sub branch of S17250). Not yet sure, if I2a genetics community defined Dinaric-North, maybe Y4460 is one of candidates, because since 2016 there is no single SNP found for “North”.
  • Looks like Y4460 may represent Vistula Venedi ancestry (2016 theory). And based on yfull 6.01, looks like UKR and BLR is most common ancestry. So it might be parent DNA for all branches.
  • Looks like Y3106 is on the same level as B57.
  • Looks like Y3116 (Y3120 level) has significant influence on Y3106 tree.
  • Not sure yet, but A6105/A6106/Y16810 may represent Slovenia/Poland ancestry.
  • Not sure yet, but SK1241 /SK1242/Y31845 seems to be Russian/Hungary related.



UPD: The latest, 2018 article is about Big Y test results analysis, read here.


4 thoughts on “I-Y4460 [ydna] aka I2a1b2a1a1b

  1. Dear mr Lundiak,
    here is something I would like you to comment:
    The oldest branches of haplogroup Y4460 are found in Greece, Bulgaria and Macedonia. The same branches are also found in Ukraine, Belarus, Poland…
    But, none of the younger branches (down from A6105) can be found in the Balkans (Slovenia is not a Balkan country). Since the “split” occurred (if I am not mistaken) +/-1900 ago, does this mean that Y4460 did not come to the Balkans with the Slavs in the 7th, or any later century?

    • @Zoka
      If to follow calculation from YFULL (https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y4460/), it’s ~2300 y ago, when Y4460 evolved into branch. And as I understand – yes, it would mean, that split appeared somewhere in Eastern Europe. The same as S17250 evolved also in the same time, but then instead closer to Balkans. That is why we have Dinaric North and Dinaric South.

  2. Please, I thought I was clear, and I was under the impression that you have been doing this research to find out about your origin, and not to confirm some desired presuppositions.
    Let’s leave S17250 out of the picture for now (believe me, there are some things about this subclade which might change your perspective). Also, the division Dinaric North and Dinaric South is outdated. What is important here is this:
    – the oldest branches of Y4460 are in Greece and Bulgaria, as well as in Ukraine, Belarus…
    – none of the younger sub-clades are present in the Balkans,which means that they indeed appeared in eastern Europe.
    But, this could also mean that:
    a) Y4460 actually came to Balkan 2000 years ago (from the north) and did not develop/mutate further, or
    b) that the greater part o Y4460 “clan” left the Balkans 1900-2000 years ago, crossed the Carpathian mountains and prospered in the Slavic and Baltic countries. There was no subsequent migration back (in the 6th, 7th, or later centuries) to the Balkans which could have brought the younger branches.
    This is what I would like you to comment. Thank you for your time.
    Zoka, Montenegro

  3. So Andrii your haplogroup are move from Balkan but 2000 late you find out yourself in central Europe not bad . People move all the time , do you now in the 70 generation way back have 2×64=18.446 744 000 000 000 000 ancestors only to the AD.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s